Ryan Swanson: Hello, and welcome back to the Satisfied program here on the Thee Generation Podcast. This is Ryan Swanson, and I’m excited to get into another episode here. It’s been a while since we’ve been in our regular series, been a couple months because we did a Q&A last time. But we’re going to slide back into our series with a little bit of a turn, actually. I think I mentioned to those that were at the Youth Summit that the next podcast in our series would be on prayer —how to properly pray for a spouse. But, because of a question I got in, and I’ve had quite a few questions come in recently, and that’s great, but one of the questions I got, I thought, deserved a podcast, and instead of waiting, I just felt like it would probably be best to do it now, even though part of the subject matter we’ll get to eventually, and so I’ll save some of it, but some of it we actually kind of missed and that’s why I want to cover it now. 

If you remember several months back, we went through a podcast discussing where compromises in emotional purity begin. We went through a whole list of noticing and appreciating and all these things and all the way back down to indulgence. But I didn’t really spend much time there and kind of just assumed we were on the same page. But that wasn’t really a fair assumption because we have people from many circles that are listening to this and many backgrounds and places, honestly around the world, that are listening to this podcast. So it would be best if maybe we defined our terms a little bit better, especially because there are so many different views on what indulgence actually is. So again, what I’d like to do is to start where at least most of us would be on the same page. See if we can work backwards and discover where it would go wrong. 

Now, a lot of this is going to be a discussion of the physical because emotional indulgence eventually is going to come to physical. And the question is, what aspects of physical touch, physical communication are wrong? What aspects would we define as the actual indulgence? So, the person that wrote in emailed, and by the way, she was very genuine in her question, so I really appreciate that aspect of it. She’s actually in a relationship already, engaged, soon to be married, I believe. I don’t know if she gave a date. I don’t think she did, but I think before long, they are planning to be married. The question was specifically, and we’ll cover it in different areas, but the question was, is kissing wrong before marriage? The way we’re going to tackle this is a discussion, and we’ll discuss kissing, but we’re also more just in general of, of physical touch, a handhold, a hug, that kind of thing — which of these would be wrong and why? 

But I want to break this episode into two separate portions. First off, we’ll cover what is wrong within a committed relationship? So here’s a young lady who’s asking who is engaged. So is there a different, maybe a different standard within a relationship if this is somebody who you’re actually planning and it’s a mutual commitment that you already have towards marriage. But then the second aspect or second half of this podcast will be focused just towards probably the vast majority of our listenership, I would guess. That is those that are single, and quite single, and are not in a relationship at all. So then what aspects of physical touch with the opposite gender should they be concerned about? So we’ll get there, but first let’s start with within a relationship. 

Now a verse that you absolutely have to go to, though we need to define it, but we have to go to is 1 Corinthians 7:1. Now this is a verse that anyone bringing up this discussion would expect to come up, I understand that. Yet it needs to be dissected a little bit and we need to understand what this is saying. 1 Corinthians 7:1 says, “now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me,” Paul says, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.” Now there’s some on the one hand that would say that this verse means there can be. Absolutely no physical contact. If a lady slips on the ice in front of you, you can do nothing. You are helpless, men, to help her up because that would include physical contact. Okay, there’s one on the one hand. On the other side, there’s those that would say well that can’t be right. So really this either has no bearing on us today and no application, or this is strictly, Paul is strictly referring to a sexual relationship here and warning against that. So on the one hand, there’s those that interpret and say, this means absolutely no touch. And on the other, it means it really has no bearing or it’s just referring to that intimacy, and that’s the only warning here. 

If we’re going to decide which of these it is, or perhaps maybe it’s something in the middle, we’re gonna have to look at that word touch. It is good for a man not to touch a woman. What does that word mean? My father-in-law has done a much more in-depth study on this than I have, and perhaps you’ve heard that from him. But the point is, that word touch, if we were to go into the Greek, we would find that this particular word for touch actually carries a strong nuance of a touch that kindles. Kindles a fire — a touch that kindles a fire. So again, I want to start where I would hope most of us would be on the same page. And that is to say that fire that could potentially be kindled, that it could lead to, would be to have sexual intimacy before marriage. OK, let’s say that I think we’re on the same page — that would be wrong. We could say that’s indulgence right there. So the question is, does it start there, or does it end there? Is it starting somewhere else in the physical realm? We’ve already discussed in the emotional how far it goes back, but what about in the physical realm, we’re already in a committed relationship, what aspects of physical touch are going to lead in that direction? And the question is, if there is a touch that leads that way, is it only wrong if it does lead to that indulgence and intimacy, or could it could it be wrong in and of itself? 

Have you ever noticed the signs at gas stations that they’ll have, lots of times on the pumps, probably about every pump I would guess — I haven’t checked — but I’ve seen them there where it says no open flame, and there will be a symbol with an X through a match or something like that showing that there is no tolerance for an open flame no matter how small even as small as a match. There is no tolerance. Now why would that be? Someone could look at it, it’s just a match. Like there is no, I can strike this anywhere in my house, outside. It’s a harmless little match. What’s the problem? Well, the problem when you get close to those gas pumps, of course, is the fumes that potentially could be in the air that could combust at that point and cause obviously catastrophic consequences. So, someone could look at that though and say, well, is it really wrong to light the match or is it only wrong if the gas station blows up? I mean, really, what are the odds? What is the probability that the right fumes are going to come along at the right time and combust and then cause a chain reaction, which could end up in something big? What are the odds that that’s really going to happen? So if it’s one in 1000, do you think that the owners of the station are going to be okay if you go, go ahead and try that. What if it’s one in 10,000, what if it’s one in a million, are they going to be okay with you testing it out? No. At some point it becomes less about probability and more about risk. Even if this happens one in a million times, it’s going to be catastrophic. So we’re not going to do it. 

And the interesting thing is, if you did happen to be that one in a million, lit the match, the place explodes, and somehow your charcoal remains are able to make it to court to testify, what are you going to be accused of at that point? Well, blowing up the gas station. But all you did was lit a match. So, was lighting the match wrong now at that point? Well, clearly it was. It blew up the gas station and you were warned against it. So isn’t it wrong whether or not it ends that way? Look, perhaps I’m belaboring the point, but I think the illustration is obvious. You have a warning right here. There’s a warning sign with a little picture of a match and an X through it saying, no open flame. Paul is saying there is no tolerance for touch that could lead to a fire. It could seem like this is open to opinion, but it’s not. 

Let me read you something from Christianity.com. I just love going to Christianity.com, marriage.com, to pick apart some advice that they give. I’ve done it before on podcasts and I hope this is amusing to you as it is to me. But let me read you something regarding kissing before marriage. It says this, “kissing before marriage can cause a great deal of different emotions in our hearts yet we cannot let our emotions override our knowledge and convictions.” And then get this right here. “It is better to avoid something if we think it will, in fact, lead us into sin.” Now, just ponder that for a second. It’s better to avoid something if we think in fact. Well, first of all, you can’t think in fact. If it’s fact, you know it. And if you’re thinking, then it’s an opinion. It’s something that might happen. So already they’re kind of tripping over their words here trying to be a little bit more ecumenical and accepting to more people that may have differing opinions as they go on to state in the article. They’re trying not to land too hard on either way here. 

Okay, but what do they say? “You should avoid it if you think in fact it’s going to lead to sin.” Well, that’s kind of obvious. But which of us knows in fact that if we strike this light, we’re gonna be the one in a million. Even if it’s one in a thousand, which of us knows? Well, we don’t. And so you shouldn’t only avoid striking the match if you know, as it says in fact, that it’s going to lead in catastrophic consequences. So, if we’re not waiting to be convinced in fact, then what is it? It’s if there’s any probability. If there is any chance, if it’s one in a thousand, 10,000, 100,000, million, 10 million, I don’t care. If there’s any chance, then guess what? I’m not going there. I’m not doing that. And so, when Stephanie and I started our relationship, we wrote out a purity covenant that was our heart on paper signed and given to our parents. I’ll read it to you, not because these are words you need to copy down. If you ask me to send it to you, I’m probably not going to because it’s not the point. It’s not copying down phrases or whatever to use for yourself, but you need to be convinced of where God’s leading you, and then have that be your commitment. But this was for us. It says, “This covenant established before God and our parents that we will protect the gift of physical intimacy and preserve it in every aspect until marriage. We choose to respect the sacredness of this intimacy by refraining from any conversation, gesture, or inference to it until marriage. Furthermore, taking the principle of 1 Corinthians 7:1 — that the principle we were just discussing — recognizing the deceitfulness of our own hearts in this precarious time. We choose  to hold ourselves to a standard of no tolerance in regard to physical contact. May God be glorified in the purity of this courtship and may its integrity be a testimony of Christ himself.” That was written a couple years back when we started our relationship and committed that to our parents. And from the heart of this commitment, our first kiss was when we were pronounced husband and wife, and our first time holding hands was just a few minutes before that. 

Now did we take a very extreme and conservative, careful position on this? I mean, yeah, you could say that, but I would argue I think that’s what that verse is saying to do. Don’t even get close. No tolerance at all. Now I so don’t want to condemn somebody who’s come down on a different side of this that I’m tempted to just say pray about it and let God lead you to your own application. But I hesitate to say that because this really is not that hard. The risk here is so great that there is no room to mess around. And how conservative you set your standards and your boundaries and your lines in this relationship are a direct representation of how committed you are to never end up in that indulgence. The results are just far too catastrophic. We’re not messing around. Now there’s several other arguments that could be given, whether it’s in regards to kissing before marriage and holding whatever it is. But this enters into a discussion of actually what is proper within that relationship, which we are going to get to that in a future podcast. I was really tempted to make it a three-part in that area and, and really just hit that now. But it’s, it’s so much out of sequence and where we’re at right now. that we’re going to hold off and that’ll be in several months. So we’ll get there. 

But I felt like the primary thing is where this leads to, that touch that kindles the fire, and to me, that’s enough. That’s enough right there. And I think we should be able to base our standards and our boundaries, even off of just that verse and what Paul is warning us against there. Now let’s move over quickly. Hope that was helpful, and answering that question, but let’s just pivot a little bit and discuss then physical touch outside of a committed relationship.

Someone could say, look, I understand within a committed relationship, the emotions are high, the passions are through the roof. So I understand them being careful because their passions have been building for so long and they’re right on the other side of marriage. And so, those passions could just push them over. But for me… I’m this way with any girl, a guy might say, or a girl says man. I’ll hug any guy It’s it’s nothing special just to put my arm around or it’s just how I greet them or whatever and there’s really no problem there. It’s not doing anything for me. It’s not kindling anything in me. Again, there are so many aspects of this that we could cover, but I just want to focus on one. 

Again, not one necessarily that you haven’t heard before but hear me out on this — you have no idea what’s going through the other person’s mind. You really have no idea. You don’t know what they’re thinking, what they’re expecting, what they’re hoping, what they’re reading into, what they’re wondering, what they’re assuming. You have no idea what it’s doing for them.

A few months ago, I had a heartbroken college age young lady walk into my office, very confused and explained to my wife and I how that she had been in a friendship with a man that we’ll call him John, another college student, that had gone on for years — they had been friends. She never really knew if it would come to anything else. She had subtly hoped it would, but had no idea what kind of feelings he had other than he was a very caring and affectionate young man. And that came across, and so it was hard not to read into different hints that he would give that eventually he would love this develop into something else. Nevertheless, his intentions with this relationship was very ambiguous until a couple days before she had walked into our office. She explained what happened. 

He had taken this young lady out and they were having a fine jovial conversation. She is hoping, half expecting, that he’s going to turn the conversation and discuss intentions that he has for the two of them. However, it took a quite a different turn when he explained and asked her to pray about another relationship that he was hoping to pursue. He begins talking about another girl and how much he has feelings for her, how much she means to him. Like, he was completely oblivious to how he had been leading her on all this time. And just to make matters worse and more confusing, as he gets up to leave asking her to pray, he says it’s been nice hanging out with you and then bends over and gives her a kiss. Now she came into my office, honestly ticked off. I think as any young lady would be. How much more confusing could your actions be? But that young man, I’m sure had no idea. Now he’s naive. Honestly, we’re all naive guys. We don’t know how our actions are going to be taken. And that’s precisely my point, but really there’s two things I want us to see from this. And then we’ll be done. 

First of all, whatever innocent intentions he thought he had with that kiss, let me tell you what, that caused so much damage. She was absolutely heartbroken and confused. He had no idea what a kiss meant. So first of all, someone who says, I don’t really need to be as careful because I do this to everybody. Everybody knows I do this to everybody. It’s just how I am. I just like to hug, I like to hold hands and people know that, people understand that. Let’s just get this out there that people don’t know and understand. They don’t. They don’t know your intentions. And you don’t know theirs. And if you think you know them well enough to know their intentions, then just that tells me you might be a little bit closer to that gas station with that open flame than you think. Call it a friendship, call it whatever you want, but if you’re that tight where you think you know each other’s unsaid feelings, then… the gas station might just be around the corner. 

But one more thing we can learn from this. Take John, okay, he gave that kiss to her like he gives it to anybody. Like that’s just how he does it. But does that make it right? Even putting aside what it’s doing to these other young ladies that he’s kissing, or if it’s someone with a hug, or holding hands, whatever. Even setting aside what it potentially could be doing to them. Let’s focus in on John. He wants to have a relationship with another young lady, evidently. How is what he’s doing going to affect that relationship? Let’s assume they end up getting married, this other young lady, uh, and he ended up getting married. Do you think that his actions are going to have any ramifications then? Will a kiss ever be a special gift to his wife? Or is it just his greeting? Is it just says hello? 

I read in another article an illustration that I don’t think I’ve given here yet. I may have, but humor me nonetheless. If I were sitting around a room in a group of young adults, let’s say we’re sitting in a circle and I’ve got a lollipop. And so I take the wrapper off, I take a lick of that and I thought, you know what, I really should share this. It would be the kind, it would be the nice thing to do to share this. So I take a lick and then hand it to the person to the right of me. And so they take a lick and they hand it to the next person. all around the room and we share this thing and comes all the way back around and now I’ve got half a lollipop, right? And I’ve got it in my hands and I stick the wrapper back on because I think, you know, my wife’s not here and she really would like to partake in this. So after everyone else has already had their enjoyment, then I take that home and I give it to my wife and I say, Stephanie, you know, I brought you something today. I thought you’d really appreciate it. It’s a lollipop. It’s your favorite flavor. It’s raspberry. I know you’d like it. So here you go. And she looks at it and it’s all licked over. Is that really going to be a special thing to her anymore? Would it be ungratefulness or common sense if she says, “I don’t want anything to do with this. You have already shared this with so many other people. It’s not special anymore.” 

Listen, young people, the more you save, the more you have to give. It’s that simple. That’s how it works. Your spouse someday is going to appreciate beyond belief if you have set standards for yourself now so that you have more to give at that moment. We’ve already talked through how this looks in the emotional realm, but just in the physical, I wanna say — reserve it, reserve it, all of it. Don’t give it away. No taste testing around the room. Reserve that for one.

We’ve covered a lot. Quick recap from today, if you’re in a relationship right now and you’re wondering where’s the boundary now that we’re committed, just remember you’re at the gas station with a match. Identify the risk, take the warning from 1 Corinthians and stay as far away as possible. Do not strike that match. The risk is so great that it far outweighs a discussion on probability. 

And then to those that are not in a relationship at all, remember, you have no idea what’s going on inside the other person’s head. Don’t play the game and mess with someone else’s life. If you really care about them, you’re gonna keep your hands to yourself. And remember, the more you reserve, the more you have to give. It’s a wonderful, wonderful, but very, very simple principle, and it’s crucial. This comes down to right now. This isn’t something to start considering once you begin a relationship. This is right now. Reserve everything you can. Make it a gift. You’re wrapping up a gift right now to give to your future spouse. Make it special. 

And look, let me just simply say, in conclusion, you can explain away certain things. You can come up with rebuttals to about every argument and say that you really feel like God is leading you to something else, to a different standard. The standards that my wife and I set, they don’t make us a better person, but I will say this, no one is ever going to make me regret saving my first kiss for my wife on my wedding day. No one is ever going to make me regret saving those hugs, saving those handholds for my wife on wedding day. No one is ever going to make me regret that. It means the world to me. My wife did it for me, and your spouse will be thrilled with the same. The point is not that if someone doesn’t read the Bible the same way I do, they can’t have a great marriage. The point is, if you’re gonna do it, do it right, do it the best.

Eventually in a future podcast, we will get to a discussion on God’s plan for your courtship, what that would look like. We’ll discuss the difference between love and lust, the difference between verbal and physical communication. We’ll have some great discussions there. It’s not for this time, we will get there, I promise. Next time, we’ll finally pick up and get to that podcast entitled, Praying, P-R-A-Y-I-N-G, or Preying, P-R-E-Y-I-N-G. 

Are you a saint, carefully praying for God’s will for your life? Or are you just a creeper, who is carefully and patiently stalking his unsuspecting victim? We’ll find out next time in our discussion, praying or preying. But for now, let’s take what we’ve learned from today, apply it to the relationships around us, as we seek to be less gratified and more satisfied with Jesus Christ.