Anna Faith Gillmore: Hello! This is Anna Faith, and welcome to episode 28 of Faith Talks. I’m flying solo today. Janna’s continuing to travel with Dr. Jim and the War of Special Forces. She’s currently still out in California, but I’m in Wisconsin here today. I’m actually at the Thee Generation Youth Summit, and we’re recording this podcast a couple of weeks in advance. It’s just exciting to see so many teens desiring to walk with the Lord, with tender hearts to the truth of His Word, taking steps forward as they hear preaching. God has been doing a special work here this week.

We’re continuing with our relationship series, and I’m very excited for what we’re going to be talking about here today, something so needed and yet hard to talk about at times. We’re privileged to have with us Mrs. Liesel Muzzi. Several of her children have been and are currently attending Baptist College of Ministry. She’s been around for different conferences and youth things. Every time I’ve been around her, she’s been an encouragement to me and just an example of a godly lady who is living for eternity. So, we’ll just dive right in here. First of all, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

Liesel: My name is Liesel Muzzi, and I got saved when I was 17. The Lord has done a great work in my life. I’ve just celebrated our 29th anniversary to my dear husband Ron. The Lord’s given us seven children, and now I have two grandchildren. Super excited about that. I have six boys and one girl. She came to BCM for a year. My middle kids are in the college here. I’m currently a caregiver to my mom, who has Alzheimer’s dementia, and I really like to doodle –  especially stick figures!

Anna Faith: That’s fun. Yeah, I would say I’m more into doodling, not the full art of things, but that’s exciting. So how about you just share your heart? I know you were sharing with me earlier about what God’s been teaching you on your journey of relationships, and even your thoughts on how to restore those relationships that have been hurt.

Liesel: One of the things I’ve been really praying about is seeing how easy it is for mountains to develop in our relationships, disrupting them. I’ve been looking at Mark, chapter 11. Jesus in verse 22 through 26 –and I think the context of this whole passage is our relationships – He says, ‘Have faith in God. Verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.’ And it goes on to say, “What things soever you desire, when ye pray, believe that you receive them, and ye shall have them.”

In verse 25 and 26, it just seems to jump to relationships. He says, ‘When you stand praying, forgive. If you have ought against any, forgive, that your father may also forgive you. If you don’t forgive, neither will your father forgive your trespasses.’ It just seems that, the context is relationships. It’s easy for those mountains to be in our relationships with each other; the Lord wants us, I think He gives us these principles to help us know how to restore our relationships.

It’s easy for them to develop if we get irritated about something or have an unchecked offense, either we’re offending others or we’ve been offended, or we just get frustrated and angry with people. It can so easily lead to anger and then wrath and clamor, evil speaking… and it can get to malice.

I shared a testimony with Anna the other day. This has happened to me even after I was saved and in church. The church lady that looked like I had it together, and not that I did at all, but I really had an anger issue with a friend. It had been somebody that I discipled, and we were supposed to be working together. I got upset, and it just turned into a huge issue. I was thinking, ‘Well, it’s just my issue,’ and I was feeling justified about it, thinking, ‘Well, I’m right, and she’s wrong.’ All the while ( it went on for years) I was just kind of accustomed to it. I think we talked yesterday about how I knew where she was going in the church, so I would go the other direction. I figured out how to not work with her in the nursery, how to have as brief a conversation with her as I could, just to keep it(what I thought), to keep it private. But it was wrong, and it had certainly turned into a mountain.

Jesus is saying He expects us to move those mountains, and when you have ought against any, to realize it’s there and then ask the Lord to remove it, to cast it into the sea, and believe that God can do it. He assumes that when we are praying and we remember that there’s a problem, either that I have ought or someone has ought against me, that we’ll stop praying and go get it taken care of. If I need to ask somebody if I’ve offended them or they me, that I will quickly, completely, and often forgive.

I think this is the way we’re to be transparent and open and honest with each other, that we are sinners. We’re going to hurt each other. We’re going to – maybe intentionally, but maybe not intentionally. We’re sinners, and we live in an imperfect world. The path of revival is going to each other often and saying, “I think I blew it, and I’m sorry.” And if we don’t forgive, the mountains grow. Then we can’t pray. We’re not forgiven. We’re not right with God. We’re not right with each other. Our channel of blessing is gonna be stuck. We’re unusable. And we think, “Oh, it’s still just my private issue. They just need to change.” But it does hurt others. It hurts the church. It can hurt our family. It can hurt other families. It can hurt a whole generation because that pattern of anger or what we think is private, we can take it to others. We may have talked to a friend about it. You know, if I’m hurt, and then I take it to Anna and say, “I can’t believe what so-and-so did to me.” Well, then I’ve brought another into it, and that is just a mountain growing instead of going quickly to the person that I’ve hurt or who has offended me. I could have just quickly taken care of the issue, but now I’ve passed it, and it’s grown. So, Jesus really wants us to take care of those things quickly.

Anna Faith: What would you say is  (obviously there’s many reasons why we need to be free in our relationships), but one of the primary reasons why God wants us to be free in our relationships with others?

Liesel: I think so that we can be free in our relationship with God, but also so that we can pray. There are so many needs around us, in the church but around us, in our dying world, that we need to be free and right so that God hears us, because the world certainly has mountains. But so that I can rightly bear your burdens. I can rightly bear the burdens of others around us, and we can be the channels of blessing God wants us to be. 

Anna: Yes. Also, I think you already mentioned this, but what would you say if somebody  is trying to justify their own problem as a personal issue when it has to do with somebody else… and I guess, the right perspective on that and how to handle that?

“I think we regularly need to get to the Lord and ask the Holy Spirit as part of our regular walk in a relationship with Him, ‘Is there anything I need to get right about with you, Lord, or with others?’ And trust the Holy Spirit, that He’ll show you. But then if you have been hurt and you say, ‘Oh Lord, I’m so hurt.’ Well, then ask the Lord, ‘Well, what was my part in it? How did I respond to that hurt?’ Maybe, yes, maybe there really was an actual hurt that happened, and it could have been very traumatic. But how did I respond? Did I get angry? Have I gotten bitter? Has it turned to malice? What did I do about it? Have I rehearsed it to the point where I am now, and nurtured it, and nursed it even? You know, we can do that in rehearsing these things. I think yesterday we talked about having conversations with people in the bathroom mirror. You know, that is a real thing;  if we’re doing that, then we’re not getting to the point where we’re free and then can… I forgot the question.

Anna Faith: Just that personal issue. Another thought I had too. You were sharing how to deal if you are offended, and the passage in Luke 17. I don’t know if you wanna share that.

Liesel: Yes. So, when we are offended, what should we do? We need to ask the Lord, ‘Okay, what has been my part in it?’ And just a few steps (and I apologize for that). When we are offended, I think there’s a few things from this passage in Luke 17, verse one. He says, ‘It’s impossible, but the offenses will come.’ We need to expect them. We do live in a sinful world. We are sinners, and we’re not better than anybody. And we should not be surprised when people do things that are wrong to us. It’s impossible, that they are going to come.

So when they come and you’ve been hurt, you’ve been gossiped about, whatever, ask God, like He said, ‘What was my part in this? Did I provoke it? We’re supposed to be provoking one another to love and good works, but have I provoked that?’ Or if I have just been hurt (maybe out of the blue), how again did I respond? Did I spread it to others? Have I taken up, if I’ve seen somebody else get hurt, maybe somebody told me about it and now I’m angry at the person that I have nothing to do with. And that can be really wrong.

So we need to expect them, ask God to see ‘my part’, and then forgive. I think we want to forgive quickly. Think the best of that person. Maybe assume, you know, they didn’t mean to do that. ‘I love them, Lord, you saw it. I’m sure they didn’t mean to do that. They’ve got a lot on their plate.’ Just think the right things about people.

And then look for a way to make an apology. An apology always makes room. Maybe you need to go to that person, figure out some way to apologize and put the issue – whatever it is – on the table in the light so you can talk about it. Maybe you need to apologize for your gossip. Maybe you need to apologize for your wrong response or that you’ve gotten bitter. Maybe you put the situation on the table and say, ‘This is really hard and awkward. I just really feel like we need to talk about it.’ Find a way to put it in the light so that it can be forgiven and you can all look at it from different angles, and that person can say, “Wow, what you did really did hurt me. But also, really owning your feelings like, ‘Wow, this is hard for me. My feelings got hurt,’ rather than pointing at fingers and say, ‘You did this! You did this!’ but own it.

Then keep forgiving. Even in Luke 17 we need to keep forgiving. He says, ‘Take heed to yourselves, if thy brother trespass against thee rebuke him, and if he repent forgive him; and if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.’ And later in the same passage, down in verse 10, he explains the parable of service. The servants say, ‘We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which was our duty to do as we’ve been forgiven.’ Jesus wants us to forgive others the same way He forgives us; we have no reason to stand on any higher ground to say, ‘I can’t believe you did that to me.’ It is our duty to forgive as He has forgiven us.”

Anna Faith: So what would you say to somebody who says that it’s an easy thing for them to just go to tons of people; and maybe they’re on the other side where they kind of struggle with introspection, just constantly thinking, “Oh, they must be frustrated with me at something. I need to go to them.” What’s the right balance with that? Because I know with our personality it’s easier to hold things and not to go to people.

But what about somebody who maybe would struggle more with… going too much or just feeling like they have problems with people and sensing things?

Liesel:

Yeah, I think first of all… you know, pray and ask the Lord. We need to have a regular habit of asking God, ‘Is there anything that I need to confess?’ and ask Him to show you. When I was first saved – and this has stuck with me for a long time – you know how if you’ve got a rug that’s dirty and you take a hose and turn the water on and you put your thumb on the water and it comes out really hard and, you know, you put the hose and all this dirt comes out of the rug. That’s how I used to imagine that the Lord was cleaning my heart. Well, He had already taken all the junk out when I got saved, but sometimes it gets dirty, you know. And just like the disciples needed their feet washed, well ours the same.

So we need to regularly be in the habit of asking, ‘Is there anything I need to get right about? Am I right, Lord, with You? Am I right with others?’ And if you tend to that introspection, I think, have a regular conversation with your parents, with your pastor, with a trusted godly friend that won’t just pat you on the back and say, ‘Oh, you’re fine.’ Somebody that you really look up to that has a walk with God, and say, ‘You know, this is what I’m kind of thinking. Do you think I need to do anything about this?’ And I think the Holy Spirit will show you. Part of it is maturity. I think it’s a growing process, and some people are more prone to that, you know, really worrying, ‘Oh, they looked at me wrong, maybe they’re angry.’ You don’t need to really, we need to be free in Christ to know that we’re forgiven. We don’t need to chase all over the map and say, ‘Are you okay with me? Are you?’ But sometimes it’s not a bad thing to do.

You know, you can’t be too right with each other. You can’t be too right with God, check your heart too much. Unless like you said it can be, ‘Oh, I just gotta find the demons in there,’ because they’re not. If you’re saved, you’re clean and you’re washed and set apart for Him.

Anna Faith: Yes, I agree that freedom in Christ and walking in freedom and peace – I know you’re talking about just letting the peace of God rule your hearts and letting that happen in your relationships. ‘I want to be at peace with You;’ you know, that verse in I think it’s Hebrews: “As much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” And how important God views that. What would be helpful words to say if somebody has come to you, (so now you’re on the other side) and is wanting to make something right. What would be the right response for you to give to them?”

Liesel: I think it’s really important to receive them. Be kind and be willing to say, “Okay, well, maybe I’ve hurt them or there’s something hurtful here. So, if somebody comes, receive them. Be kind, and be ready to say, ‘Wow, I didn’t know that I hurt you, and I’m so sorry.’ If they’re apologizing to you for something, then say the words, ‘I forgive you.’ It’s so important. Those are hard words to say. I don’t know what it is about the formation of them. ‘I’m sorry. I forgive you.’ They’re just hard words to say! It’s a good habit to regularly confess sin to God, to one another, to exercise our flesh, that it’s not the boss. Jesus is the boss. We need to regularly be in the habit of humbling ourselves to others and to God so that the pathways are clear, the mountains are removed. God wants that clearness; saying, ‘I forgive you’ is so important. 

Anna Faith: Yes, and I think you’re mentioning too, sometimes people are like, ‘Oh, it’s nothing. Oh, it’s no big deal.’ But to that person, it was a big deal. It wasn’t nothing! That’s why they actually took the action to come to you. And so I think what you were saying, ‘I forgive you,’ is such a good response. That’s something I wouldn’t normally think about. Another question: So, after you’ve gone to somebody and you’re both right with each other, it’s gonna take time to restore that relationship. What are some helpful things that you would say about that?”

Liesel: Okay, so I’m really glad you asked that because I think after everything is forgiven,  you’ve had this difficult conversation and you may have cried, you may have prayed together, you might be shaking like a leaf – if that mountain has been there for a little while, then you’ve got some work to do to get it back to normal. And you know the Bible says to ‘make sure your friend,’  to make peace all the way. So it’s going to take a while. You’ve gotten used to the mountain being there. Now it’s going to take a while to get used to the mountain being gone and for that relationship to feel normal. So, I think in my situation, I made a habit of regularly getting to that person and looking them in the eye and saying something kind. Sometimes it was like, ‘Hello! Good morning. How are you?’ Which seems like, ‘that’s so easy.’ But if you’ve been in the habit of getting around that person or avoiding them somehow, that might be a big deal. So you might have to start there. Do something kind. Reach out. Find out what they like. Give a gift. You might have to regularly get with that person and say, “You know, we’ve been through a lot together. Is there anything we need to talk about? Maybe every day. Maybe every week. Just say, “Is everything ok? I’m okay. Are you okay?” That way you get used to the mountain being gone, building a friendship in its place. You’re restoring a wasteland.

That’s really good. But if you’ve been in a habit of getting around that person or avoiding them somehow, that might be a big deal. So you might have to start there. Do something kind. Reach out, find out what they like, give a gift. You regularly get with that person and just say, “Hey, you know, we’ve been through a lot together. Is there anything that we need to talk about? Maybe every day, maybe every week. Just say, is everything okay? I’m okay. Are you okay?” And I think in that way, you get used to the mountain being gone. You get used to, you know, building a friendship in its place. You’re restoring a wasteland. I tell my kids regularly, “Kill it with kindness. Get after it. Get to that person, and if it’s been strained for a long time, it may not switch right away,  but you can go after it. Ask the Lord for help to restore. Jesus wants us to be peacemakers, to repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. Those are wastelands where the enemy is not expecting anything to be rebuilt. But we’re supposed to be able to go in Christ and rebuild those places. To seek peace and pursue it—get after it so that there’s nothing in between you and anybody else. 

Anna Faith: Also, sometimes you’re in relationships with people and also it can be easy to, in a church setting, see situations or other people that aren’t right with each other or are avoiding each other. How would you say that you can deal with those situations in a godly way, in a way that’s not going to go talk about it with everybody else, but a way that’s going to help restore that relationship?

Liesel: So I think first of all, pray. Mountains don’t move easily. And we’re not Mountain-Movers! We are called to seek peace and make peace, but Jesus is the Mountain-Mover. We just need to trust Him. So I think first of all, we need to pray. If you’re aware of a situation or somebody comes to you and says, “Hey, did you know about,” then, say, “Hey, I’m not involved in that” and cut it off angrily, clear enough to say, “Don’t come to me with your gossip, because I don’t want to be involved.” And not like, “I don’t want to be involved with you,” but “I’m not involved.” Put a stop to the rumor train.

So pray. Don’t gossip about it. And then just ask the Lord, “Is there a way I can be a help here?” Maybe if you’re closer to one of the two parties, ask, “Is there a way I can be a help here?” If you’ve been brought into it, “Can I be a help to restore?’ Can we get together to put the light on the table together? If you can’t, then can you get to a trusted authority to say, ‘Hey, I’m noticing there’s a problem”? As a young person, I would encourage you, just get to your parents first. Bring them in, and say, “This is what’s happening, Mom and Dad. What would you expect? How should I respond to that?” Let them guide you and do whatever they say. Parents usually have understanding, especially, I think, with young ladies. We can really see how things can just blow up and be so monumental. And actually, your mom and dad will have a much different perspective and say, “You know, let’s just wait. Sometimes just wait on the Lord. And maybe, you know, the next day or the next week, that whole mountain will — what seemed like this huge catastrophe– will just all die down and you won’t even remember what it was. So maybe the Lord can just blow up that mountain with you just praying!

Anna Faith: Well, thank you so much for all those different things. I know it’s something that’s not easy to talk about – and obviously, you know, feeling our own needs and just asking God that He would show us those areas. So sometimes it’s not something that you want to feel like you’re at a place where you can talk about, but I think it is so needed. And, in a Christian school setting or a church setting, there’s so many times that things can get in in a relationship. These thoughts and verses are so freeing. I know I’ve experienced freedom myself, even talking with you from our last conversation, just experiencing God’s grace and realizing that He has the grace to give you when you’re needing to go to somebody or even to pray about it. He will give you that because He is in the business of building up churches, building up relationships. So would you have any points of application or even things that come to your mind? ‘I want to say that’ or a summary that you would like to leave with our audience? 

I was just thinking this morning,  you had asked me for just a final thought, and I thought, you know, ‘God wants us to have and experience His peace, and then share it with others joyfully, so that when a mountain develops –  because they’re going to. We’re sinners.– it’ll feel weird and we’ll be like, “That’s a signal from Him – ‘Hey, let’s talk about this. Let’s work on this.’–  So that we get to Him, and then He can help you as you walk with God, to move that mountain, to restore your relationship with other people. Jesus opened this passage in Mark 11 verse 22, “Have faith in God.”

It sounds so simple, but just trust Him—trust Him and notice, if there’s a problem in your relationships, that something’s off. Fix it. Fix it with God. Ask Him for His grace and His help to restore that with others.

Anna Faith: Well, thank you again for taking the time to share with us and God’s perspective on dealing with relationships with humility and openness. As I think of what you just said and shared, it is faith that is going to be the secret sauce in this. Take that action.  You’re not going to feel like it; you’re not going to want to go to somebody. But I would just encourage each of the listeners as you’ve listened to this, maybe there’s one specific thing the Holy Spirit has put on you, or a specific relationship, or maybe it’s multiple, or maybe you’ve been involved with gossip. I just ask that you would take whatever specific thing that the Holy Spirit is pointing out, and you would get before Him and ask Him to break you over those things and to give you the faith and the grace to make it right, and He will.

He loves restoring, and He loves bringing people together because that’s what He’s done for us. He’s restored our relationship with Him, and so He is in the business of that for sure, and He is excited to help you with these things. That’s how the church moves forward, especially as ladies. That’s our place—to build up the men in the church, our relationships with each other, and to move forward as a church of God, or as a school, whatever area, or as a family, to experience His light and His peace in your life.  So as you deal with these things and even just think about your relationships, remember that faith doesn’t just talk. Faith walks.