Mark Gillmore: Hello, I’m Mark Gilmore here once again with our Go Mission podcast. And I am so excited to come to you this time from Uganda. As you’ve heard in previous podcasts, I am just impressed on the great harvest field that’s in Africa. And I am in Uganda. It’s called the Pearl of Africa. And I think I’m sitting here with a couple of gospel pearls, a couple Ugandan men who I have spent some time with and just impressed with the hand of God on these men, on their lives, on their ministries. And it’s just an inestimable privilege to be with them. And so I want to introduce to you Pastor Michael first. And Pastor Michael, you’ve shared with me a little bit of how you came to Christ. I believe you were over in Nairobi. And then as you had found Christ, you came back here to Uganda, your own country, and began to serve the Lord. And I love those initial stages of your ministry. Could you just give us your story a little bit of how God began to use you and what happened when you came back to Uganda as a believer?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, I got to serve in Nairobi and baptized in Parkland Church in Nairobi. the biggest church industry of Kenya, capital state. So I came to Uganda in 1992, 5th, I mean 2nd of May. And then by that time, it was very hard to find the 70th church. Most of the churches around were just religions. And so I couldn’t find a church apart from a church which was here in town called the First Baptist Church in Majangarod. And so I just went back. I had to look for a fellowship, fellowship with. And then I made a certain fellowship in the Church of Uganda called the Anglican Renewal Ministries. So it was a new sect also in the Church of Uganda. They were divided. I think one church was divided into almost four sects. Wow. Almost four sects. One group was called the dead. Then another group was called the risen. Then another group was called the Christians without. And then another group was called the Anglican Renewal Ministry. So those were about four of them. Wow. But all of them still in the same church. Actually five. Others were just natural people. But attending service, they were just churchgoers. So I was there about seven years. And in seven years’ time, God had to visit me by his own will through a man who came to preach from Rwanda. And actually he came to teach about foundation and baptism in the Holy Spirit. but the people I was with about 10 were requesting to hear about how should a Christian be baptized so me I had kept it silent I had hidden it because I had made an agreement with these people of the Anglican Church that I would not preach against your doctrine because their doctrine was far different from the Bible doctrine they were teaching women can preach baptizing babies and also they were truly brought, accepting anything that come, they did not even keep their own doctrine as they thought. So I meant it that I would not do anything to their doctrine, but I just wanted fellowship with them in my ignorance. That’s how I took it. So we stayed together with them in seven years’ time. Before the seventh year culminated somebody I was sent, came put, and through that teaching is when God had to deal with my life, to get the truth. By that thing, when I got saved, I got saved in a Baptist church. Now I kept the Baptist doctrine silent and moving with these religionists, agreeing with them, and yet the Bible says, “You cannot work together except they agree.” So I agreed with them to compromise my doctrine and at least go with theirs. But God was not silent. He did not keep quiet. In 1999, it was February 18th, is when we baptized 25 believers whom we had preached to. had gotten saved. And I had just mingled them within that doctrine of the Church of Uganda. Actually, they had also embraced the charismatic movement. They didn’t have a sign up to today. They just take anything. So from that day, I was excommunicated. I was given 21 letters, warning churches around up to the provisional secretary of the province of the Church of Uganda that I should not enter any church of Anglican because I’m going to spoil them. I had to accept and we started just there. We didn’t know who we should be called. We were just there. We knew because I had a very small package of Baptists. It’s very small because I had just done only the first discipleship lessons, first ones that had nothing big. So we started on that. More I knew. And then in June, I think it was June, we met with Pastor Jeff Demarest from USC. they had come to enroll the Bible Institute students from the Eastern side. And by that time, people were paying money, and they wanted to sponsor just three men from Tororo, Valley, and then Salote. So when they reached my place, I actually had come down. I went back, and then I met them there. There were very many, about 20 people, the missionaries. So they asked me whether they could speak to us about… We didn’t know that someone had leaked us in that Bible incident in the church of Luzira. Someone went there and was from my church and then talked about our state. Then this one said, we are going to this Mbali. So when we reach Mbali, can you give us a map that we can locate where you are? You people are good at locating. So they came and just they landed in my home from where they came from. So I got the people home. I had no idea. Nobody said this has come or what. So I shared with them about the Bible school. They said, yeah, the work you are doing is good, but it’s always good to do something for God when you have the right knowledge about it. And we were all so zealous and we were hungry for that. They actually took me and my assistant was called Pastor Paul. And they stopped from there instead of going to the other part of Uganda, the northern part. They stopped here and they took us three in 1999. We had to join the Bible school after 2003. That’s when I graduated from my Bible school. But I was ordained in 2002 because I was training on job. I trained one week. They call it a month. We go back. We teach what we have learned. We come back again next month like that until we had to finish for almost four years. So I just want to thank God that God took his time with me. Actually, the day to get me back to him was a real tackle. We fought with him just like many people in the Bible fought with God. Actually, he called me, but I was resistant. I flew from him for almost eight days to another place, pretending to preach the gospel, but I was escaping the task because I was to baptize these people. as my beginning to be out of this religious church. So I rebelled, but God is always great. Actually, he humbled me and put me into the ministry. I’ve been humble to him from that time. And I always love to hear from God’s men like Pastor Mark, thank you so much for coming to Uganda and the package you have given us from the Bible. We appreciate. And I know that it has not left us the same. Many things have changed. Even just the way we were taking things, especially me, some things I could take them for granted, like this issue of training a man within the locality to serve. it has deeply sunk to me and I believe I’m going to take it so much so thank you so much that’s my brief history it’s long some people told me to write a book about it I’m very weak I don’t know how to do it but they wanted me my story they wanted me to write a book out of it because it was very very very very very hard for me to leave Church of Uganda the story was long but

Mark Gillmore: Well, I love, I think of that verse in 2 Timothy 2 about faithful men. A faithful man obeys what he knows, and then he’s ready to teach it to others. And as you had come out of Kenya, returned here, you didn’t know too much, But you knew the gospel and you began to serve and face that challenge of what would this teaching end up doing? And you tried to stay inside your former religious context. And that moment where those 25 individuals wanted to be baptized and you were wrestling with that. Yeah. That was that crisis.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, that was the crisis. The first crisis was people to get saved. Because for them, that’s also bad. When you preach salvation, many people can even fold their chairs and go back home. They don’t want to hear about salvation. Most of them. So by that time, they did not want to hear. So you could just preach about simple things, not salvation, actually. You don’t have to convict people’s hearts by the word of God, no. So that was the first challenge. Before even baptism came, we were already having that struggle.

Mark Gillmore: But on that point, you were clear. You were giving the gospel. Yeah. And then you had that choice. And as you took that step of faith, God brought another teacher into your life.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: What a divine appointment.

Mark Gillmore: A man who was actually looking for someone to train. And lo and behold, here you were, already obeying. And I just think of that missionary arriving and then finding you already at work. Yeah. That’s God, isn’t it?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Amen.

Mark Gillmore: How that he, it’s joining God in what he’s doing. This missionary didn’t start that work. No. But God connected him to you. And it’s all God. Now, back in that time, I believe you were sharing with me a little bit how that the Anglican church was pretty dominating. the Church of Uganda, and there weren’t that much of any Baptist present anywhere. And how does back then, that’s about 30 years ago or so, how does that compare to today? When you think of just the setting of Uganda in churches, has that changed?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: So much. It has changed so much because like when I can compare the time of 92 when I got served, May God save me in 92. But compared, when I came to Uganda, actually many things have changed from that time to today. And people know us as people who came from Kenya. And they sometimes call us, we brought something. They say we brought something. They don’t know. They just say we brought something. And they say there were a lot of witchcraft within the area. That’s what they say. There were a lot of witchcraft. a lot of sorcery within the area. And some people can stand and testify and say, “Michael, you brought a very big deliverance in this area.” And some of them even say, “You now look like you’re not as busy as the other time.” That’s what they say. But when you get a lot of responsibilities, you cannot just stay in one place. But by that time we were in one place, just focusing to that place. And from my time to now, many people have been converted to Christ. Many. Even if, like, some people who have come to Christ are not calling themselves Baptists, but you can still see a kind of big revival.

Mark Gillmore: Yes.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: A kind of big revival there.

Mark Gillmore: So that stronghold that even stood against the gospel, like there, that’s not, it’s not as strong anymore. It’s been broken.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: It’s no longer, actually, they are now in those churches, like Church of Uganda, even in Catholics, they have now what they call a Rachel Maria religion. They call it also saved people. Even though they still continue doing this, that, but they claim they are born again. They claim they know Jesus Christ. They claim they pray in the name of Jesus, not in the name of Mary in Catholic denomination. Then also in Church of Uganda, because of the salvation that God gave us, and even like today adding to this radio that we have, actually those people, they too much appreciate. The reverends appreciate the work. They appreciate the work. It has changed. They now preach salvation openly also in their churches. Even if they have not come out openly, they are maybe turning from Church of Uganda doctrine. They are there, but trying to teach salvation. They try to teach salvation.

Mark Gillmore: Well, that just impresses me again on the great harvest time that we’re living in, where the gospel is infiltrating strongholds that once resisted it, and now folks inside are even preaching the gospel.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, inside there.

Mark Gillmore: Praise the Lord. That is wonderful to hear. Now, I’m also sitting here with Pastor John, And really, Pastor Michael and Pastor John worked very much close together. And I met you, Brother John, up in Arua, the northwest side. And it was such a joy to be together just about a year ago. And at that time, I just gained a bit of your heart for training, training men who would go and plant churches. And I’ve had the opportunity even in these couple days to just drive endless miles, village after village, and we sense this burden for reaching these places. And you’ve had a training vision along. Could you share with us just that vision that God’s given you for training?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Again, we are so thankful for your visit, first of all. Thank you so much for thinking about us and taking that expense to be here with us. Basically, the Lord loves his people. Sinful as we are, he loves us so much. Jesus telling the disciples to go all over the world to teach people, to preach the gospel, that they may receive the Lord Jesus Christ, it wouldn’t be possible if they, the trail of, were to go all over the world. But they trained men. And everyone who is saved today is saved on the foundation of training. Jesus trained only 12. Removed Judas, put Paul. These are 12 only. But they turned the world upside down because they did not keep the training within them. they passed it over to another generation. And again our training is based on 2 Timothy 2:2. The things that you have heard of me among many weaknesses, the same, the very things commit them unto faithful men who will teach others also. So with that foundation when i have i know i’m going to heaven i want other people to be in heaven yes and i alone cannot move all over the world training people so we with the pastor pastor andrew stensus was the missionary who started this work he trained me he trained us and uh because i had the knowledge And I can’t reach everyone. We also, when he left, we continued with the work. And I’m so thankful for Pastor Andrew leaving the U.S. and coming to Bali so that we can know this truth. So this same truth, we have passed it all over to very faithful men who are also passing it over to others. I want to thank God that the men we went to as we were driving, like you said, these were men who were trained here. Yes. And they have started churches. Yes. And others have started also training people in that community, sharing with them the burden of the need for the knowledge of the word of God over and over in their training. They went out with it. And so I’m privileged to know that we did not run in vain. Yes. The men that were trained are also working. And that gives me another strength to train more because they know the goal.

Mark Gillmore: Yes.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yes, sir.

Mark Gillmore: In the last two days, I have gone with you to five of these new churches. And I met a dear man, Pastor Moses. Yes. And I also met Pastor Robert. And could you just tell me a little bit the story of Pastor Moses and how you trained him and how he in turn has trained others?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Thank you. Pastor Moses has a Catholic background. He was a strongman in a Catholic religion. He was one of the leaders in that religion. But through the ministry of Truth Radio, we had a program of questions and answers. You know, life is full of questions. But every question, God has answered it in his word. So people were asking questions. We were teaching salvation. People were asking questions. And we would open the Bible and share the truth of the Bible as they also read their own Bibles the other side. Because we normally encourage them, open your Bible and read what we are reading this side. So among the many listeners, Pastor Moses was one of them. And he had been in this religion all his life from birth. So he was interested. They asked their questions, and we shared the Bible. They asked the question. Whatever question they asked, we opened the Bible, and we read the scriptures. So he had to move to Mbali. He met us here. He met me, and he was inquiring about salvation. So we walked through the journey of salvation of the Bible, And he gave his life to Jesus Christ. And we moved him into the Bible school. Actually, Pastor Moses is by age older than any of us, the teachers. But he was this sweet man with a spirit ready to study. And he was there and very committed until the end of the study. So after graduation, he went and started a ministry. And with his family, and we kept going there. He kept preaching the gospel in the community. And not many really want that kind of gospel because it is a Catholic-infested area. But some, because in John 1, 12, tells us that as many as received him. Verse 11 tells us, have him. So some of them, the people in the community, accepted the gospel. And the ministry is standing up today. But we have this body. Not only this training is for the learning, not only this training can be done in the town, just not the rest of the steps. And talking to the king, and prayerfully, when they gave

Mark Gillmore: that one of these young go with the word I have to carry that with hands off position I’ve tried to leave where he was before I expect the guidance by now chis with gossip so we have the word what is more

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: if we put the speech community there is disparagement that’s the type we as Baptists somewhere to give way to the people who are not teaching what is right but we are saying no, this is now the time for us to give the right, the truth we don’t want people to go to hell just because we kept quiet We want to say every truth. And it is up to individuals to choose whether to take the truth or to leave the truth. But we will have sense. So we are still praying to God to start more of these rural community training centers. Yes. Because people would not be able to travel distances to town. But for us who know their need, we will go there. Because Jesus said, go. He did not say they will come. So we want to go and meet them where they are.

Mark Gillmore: And surely there is prepared men out there. That’s right. Yesterday, we drove two and a half hours down dusty paths in a vehicle to a man who’s planting a church who on those same roads bicycled here for his training. That’s true. That’s a sacrifice and a hunger, and surely that is out there, that God will connect you to those individuals. Well, I just received word that in the context of 8 billion souls, Uganda is one of the fastest growing countries in the world. I think three times faster than maybe the normal global rate. So we’re in a great harvest field. Right. Uganda is a great harvest field. That’s right. That’s the way I feel. I wonder, Pastor Michael, would you have anything to kind of add to encourage us as we look at Uganda as a harvest field? Any final thought for us?

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, as we look at Uganda’s harvest field, we should not also forget about apostasy. The billions we talk of, sometimes some of them may not be genuine. Like Matthew 7 says, that not all. Therefore, like as the pastor said, In this so-called Christian growth in Uganda, some people think most of the denominations, when someone gets saved, they just talk about it is now filled with the Holy Spirit and is ready to preach and goes and makes a lot of faults in the field. Our vision, like he said, It’s not only for the land, so land, because when the Bible talks about land, does not mean it’s elementary learning. It talks about being learned in the things of God. We have in our vision that we can even train those men who are not learned, but they can read some words in their own local language. Even though we are limited with some kind of like we talk about maybe finances or what, but we know God is not limited. We started it somehow. With even those ones who do not speak, yes or no, but they can read ever natural. So we want those ones who are eager to serve, to have the knowledge of service, not just to pop in and begin to spread. because the devil is also targeting this truth and counterfeit it and use anything to defy the work of God. Therefore, we are so much emphasizing that people should be trained in order to serve well.

Mark Gillmore: Amen. So that training is not just an educational qualification. You want it accessible even to those who have not had that development. Yes, yes.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: At least basic of pastoral care, basics of how someone can administer, basically those ones.

Mark Gillmore: Yes.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: And still, they can get it.

Mark Gillmore: And they can be faithful men.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, they are. We’ve seen them faithful, but limited because of the language, English or whatsoever. And that’s why you see, like when we went to those churches, we went, you had people singing their local language. We have tried our books, what, what. But now we’ve also come with the knowledge that God is not of one language.

Mark Gillmore: Amen.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: God is of all languages. So we let these people be trained how they can best serve God in their local atmosphere. Yeah.

Mark Gillmore: That is exciting. And it can spread that way because it becomes their own.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah.

Mark Gillmore: You gave them the truth. You’re not going away. You’re going to continue to train and perhaps have a conference and bring further strengthening to them. But these local works are in their hands, in their language, not with a qualification given from some college or seminary, but from the truth given by you. And this has the potential.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: Yeah, the Bible says it’s God who commands.

Mark Gillmore: Yes.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: So when he deserves us, man can command. Maybe you can be approved by the government. Maybe the college you took is, they say what? Accepted or accepted? So I don’t know. It has a legal acceptance with the government, but God, does he accept them? Because like when you go to most colleges here in Uganda, they can train someone a hymn book. A hymn book. Yes, a hymn book. It has some kind of liturgy there. And that one qualifies to be a pastor. With the liturgy only.

Mark Gillmore: Only liturgy.

Pastor Michael and Pastor John: No Bible. But for us, we are saying, if someone can even just know. You see, you can train a local man. He knows firm foundation. He comes well with that. All of it. He knows the things that you are giving. That’s the whole Bible. I saw some seven slates. Seven of them. Just seven is the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. which people don’t have. So if we can combine and work for the Lord, together with the same zool, that we let these men access the education. Education is not all about elemental. I want to say this. It’s not all about elemental. It’s about the things of God.

Mark Gillmore: Well, I’m excited about the future. Our resources may be limited, But the greatest resource is people. Yeah. People that God leads us to who are ready. And the Lord says the field is white. So the resource is there. We just must connect to it, have that vision, and then equip and send. And I know that is your heart. So pray for Africa. Young people, realize that the harvest is ripe. Even 30 years ago today compared to 30 years ago, we have reason to be more zealous, more engaged, more hopeful. Young people, you have not missed the opportunity to serve God. You’re living in the greatest opportunity to serve God. And Uganda is part of that. Some of these missionaries that were here are bearing fruit. But the role of the missionary in Uganda is not over. You can come on over. You can partner. There’s divine appointments waiting for you. And we can be part of this great mission that the Lord has given to us. Remember that the only way to stay at peace in a world of turmoil and uncertainty is to stay on mission with Jesus in his Go Mission.

Mark Gillmore: Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Thee Generation Podcast. If you have an issue you need help with, we have a resource that can help you. The Battle Plan for Victory is an online resource designed to help young people deal with personal sin issues through the Word of God and ultimately