Ryan Swanson: Hello and welcome to the Satisfied podcast here on the Thee Generation Network. This is Ryan Swanson, and I’m joined today by my wife Stephanie for the maybe third time or so that we’ve done a joint podcast together. You know it’s going to be serious if we’re bringing in Miss Stephanie Swanson. But there’s a specific reason I’ve asked her to join, and that is she’s bringing a perspective from a young lady that sent in a testimony. She was one of the first ones that contacted us after we started this series and just wanted to share her testimony. She didn’t ask us to share it on air, but when we checked whether she gave permission to do so anonymously. So we will reference that today as we make a very specific point from her testimony. But this is the third, I believe, episode that we’ve done now on the topic of Twisted Passions, homosexuality. And we have had several, quite a few, reach out and give comment on this. It seems like every week somebody else is reaching out, either with further questions for themselves or someone they’re trying to reach and understand. And it certainly has been a learning and growing experience for myself doing the study in this. But it also has been a huge blessing just to see some who are extremely thirsty and have been waiting for someone in our circles to deal with this issue and wrestle with some of these big questions. And I feel like up to this point, we’ve been a little bit dancing around the issue. We’ve definitely hit on it. And the last discussion we had was really, really good. It was a bit of a difficult one. So today we’re going to start answering the questions that people are actually asking. And that starts with what I think is probably the biggest question when it comes to homosexuality. And that is, was I born this way? And it’s ironic I’m bringing this up with my wife, Stephanie, who’s sitting here nine months pregnant. Almost, yeah. Almost nine months. Yes. So a couple more weeks here and that’s the due date. So we’re very in tune to birth. Thank you. But with this question of was I born this way? It’s interesting, I think, to how a discussion on the issue oftentimes doesn’t get past this point. Like this is where it starts and this is where it ends because it seems like it’s really hard for people to get on the same page. There was a time where I was going with some guys to play volleyball. Do you remember that gym in Wisconsin that we’d go to once in a while to play? And so there were several of us guys that were going to play volleyball there and there would be several leagues that would come through that gym. And oftentimes there is a gay league that would play. And so we would challenge them to a game occasionally and probably lose. But I don’t remember. There are some really good people that played at this gym. But I remember after one of these games, we, of course, were all burdened for the individuals on this team that evidently was comprised of homosexual individuals. But one of the guys on our team afterwards, one of the Christian guys, started to get into a conversation with one of the guys on the other team about the gospel. And I think it was the man from that other team that brought up the fact that he was gay. And he just expected that to turn Christians off. So it was like, the gospel doesn’t apply to me because I’m gay. But at the same time, he immediately went into a defense trying to prove that he was born that way. And I guess to his point, I don’t know what you think on this, but it seems like somebody who is struggling with homosexuality and immediately goes there. It’s like they’re trying to say, if I was born this way, there’s nothing I can do about it. So it’s like I can only take responsibility for the things that I choose. I didn’t choose this, so I’m not going to take responsibility for it. God doesn’t like me. God doesn’t want me from his perspective. Okay, fine. But the Christian guy immediately went like, it was kind of frustrating, although I don’t know that I could have done a better job with it, but he made that the issue as well and I immediately embarked into a discussion trying to convince this guy that, no, you were not born this way. And trying to prove based off of questions and were there factors and did you have a strong mom or dad and was this person present in your life or not or these things. Trying to prove how that came elsewhere. And I definitely didn’t know a better way to handle it, but it just struck me as like this can’t be the right thing. there’s something like we just lowered to that level trying to argue the question of was I born this way like like that’s the um that’s what determines whether this is right or wrong and the discussion is so far above this question but nevertheless it’s the topic of of today’s and the next episode but I think from that we need to establish that we often approach the issue of sexuality as if there’s only one answer to everyone’s problem. And like everyone got here the same way. And don’t worry, I’m going to let my wife speak in just a moment. I’m talking too much per usual. But one thing that’s been helpful to me in studying this is to recognize that what might have driven one person to identify that way could be very different from the next person. And we’ve got to be sensitive to that because as soon as we latch onto one, we think, okay, this is the reason all people struggling with same-sex attraction feel that way. And we start preaching that as the source and the reason. There’s a handful of people, maybe the other half, that are like, I can’t relate to that, so you don’t have an answer for me. There’s no help. So we have to be open to the fact that there are multiple ways that people end up in failure in this way, in any type of failure. But in this one in particular, there’s multiple ways. And so as we answer the question, was I born this way? Today’s simple answer is no. We are talking to the people that were not born this way. Now, next month, our podcast, which is part two of Was I Born This Way, is going to be, the answer to the question will be maybe. And we’ll clarify that then. And I know some of you are thinking heresy already. But you won’t want to miss that one. That one’s going to be really deep. So join us for that one for sure. But until then, we’re dealing with the simple answer and addressing those that maybe they feel they were born this way, maybe not. And I think some of the things we’ll discuss today will help establish whether they can point back to a first time or not. But the reason that I’ve asked Stephanie to come on this one, as I mentioned, we have a testimony to go through. And so I thought it’d just be good if you give kind of a little bit of a backstory of this young lady and kind of what happened from her end and what factors, environmental factors, we could see from her story that led us to believe that this was the verdict in her situation, that she wasn’t born this way, but it might have been this other factor.

Yeah, so this girl that I talked to, she grew up in a kind of unique home situation where they were Christian, but it was very legalistic. And she doesn’t, she apparently got saved, but she’s like, I got like saved 30 times basically because every time you do something wrong, it’d be like, oh, you’re not saved. So it was one of those situations. So just not a lot of truth going on there and nothing that really just made her have a relationship with the Lord or anything like that. so when she got to be about 20 um she then just decided to forget everything that you know her family and church and had taught and everything and there was a lot wrong there as well even in her family relationships but she decided like I’m gonna do my own thing I’m not gonna care about what my family believes or anything like that and um that’s when she got in with some friends and those seeds of just thinking she maybe was lesbian started happening the same sex attraction going on there um she would she wasn’t in a relationship with a guy so a lot of people would say oh well maybe maybe you’re lesbian there’d just be different things that would come up and then people would say that so those little seeds were just what the devil started using in her life to just make her start thinking that way.

Yeah, and I think that’s one of the factors that led me to this possibility that some people struggling this way do so because of seeds of wrong thinking that were planted at pivotal times in their life. And again, I’m not saying this is everyone. It definitely is not. But this is for those people where it applies, that they began to, I think a key word is consider things that they should not even have considered. And I won’t be able to stress this enough because of the amount. I mean, I think in the past month, I’ve had three individuals that have reached out for help, of which all three, it’s very clear they were not born with a desire towards the opposite gender. But because of even just being a very sensitive person, an introspective person, they began to consider and wonder and maybe somebody or something put it in front of them, whether that was a TikTok or something that’s mentioned actually in this lady’s testimony. Yeah. Something like that that’s mentioned and not dealt with can be so destructive. And so we have people just asking questions. And I immediately think of the verse of 2 Corinthians 10, 5, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. that is such a powerful verse and honestly a freeing verse because many times the people asking these questions i’m talking about christians that are asking the questions of am i gay am i attracted to the same gender um they don’t even want to that’s the thing they they’re not in this because they want to and they just woke up one day and like oh it’d be fun to be gay I do not think that’s the majority of people that we’re dealing with the problem is much of our preaching is structured and set up to the fact it’s just preaching against the sin like people are just like they just woke up one day and wanted to do it and so they jumped in headlong

you can see that more in like the secular realm maybe because they see the privilege it gives them like in the public schools but it’s often like in the Christian realm it probably is totally the opposite

Yeah, definitely. Which actually brings up an interesting point. Do you have any idea what the statistics are with how many people? And this is just US based surveys and it’s secular. But any idea what percentage would identify as LGBTQ today? In 2020, it was 5.6%. 5.6. And the most recent Gallup poll that was done, it’s 9.3%. So it’s almost doubled. But if you just look at Gen Z adults, then it is, let me find this again. It’s one in five. So what is that, 20%? That’s crazy. But why would that be? Well, I think it boils back down to the TikTok. Like, I’m not saying that’s the only factor. It’s just that Gen Z was one of the first ones to just completely live your life over TikTok. Over TikTok. Yeah, that’s my millennial speaking. That’s what we grew up on. On TikTok. And so they, to the point where they just weren’t ashamed of anything. And so any type of feeling that made them unique was their claim to fame. It wasn’t something to be ashamed of. It was something to glorify and so put out in the public eye. And people would respect you just because you were willing to be open about something that most people had up to that point been ashamed about. And that was the, I think, the blow up of what happened with social media and short form content, TikTok, is people liked the vulnerability of it. Well, you have people on there that are struggling with all kinds of different mental situations and then are just talking about it and airing all of that. And that’s what, because it’s them being honest and vulnerable, people respect it and love it. And so all of a sudden you have things like the wrong thinking involved in the identity crisis of LGBTQ+. And that is now the cool thing. That’s what’s glorified. That’s what’s really neat and respectable because it’s honest. It’s people being honest with the feelings that they’re facing. And so the agenda becomes you just be you. Whatever way you’re feeling, let us know. We’ll support you and however you feel. We’ll give you a thumbs up on your button. We will subscribe. We’ll like and comment if you’re just being honest. And the affirmation just because something is honest, I think twisted our view of morality. There actually is an absolute right and wrong. And what we’re liking on TikTok and social media doesn’t necessarily represent what is morally right and wrong. And I think that comes down to, again, casting out imaginations. And the question could be asked, well, is it wrong to ask questions? Is it wrong to consider and to wonder and explore or whatever terminology you want to use? Well, it’s those imaginations that are exalting themselves against God. So start there, right? And with what you know about God, you have 100% freedom to consider and wonder and discuss those things that are in line with your Creator. But if you think you want to have freedom to explore things that you already know are contrary, to God’s created order. Well, no, you don’t have freedom to do that. If you do, you can absolutely expect that you will be caught up in a lie as you begin to consider those things. These have to be absolutely thrown out of our minds because as Proverbs 23, 7 says, for as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. It doesn’t say as he is, so thinks he. It’s the other way around is how it happens is that what we think on, we imbibe. It just becomes a part of us. So anyway, I’ll let you continue on in her story.

Yeah, and that’s good. I know there’s tagging off what you just said. Even just like seeing it on social media and you don’t confront it even in your brain, like that’s even a thought.

I’ve been convicted about that a lot.

Like just, I need to say, no, that’s wrong. You know, whenever there’s just something you see that’s contrary to scripture, because you just start normalizing it. And it’s just so easy to just get those little, I don’t know. You can almost agree with the world in a way, but you know it’s wrong. But then it just piles up.

Yeah, definitely.

Just always when anything contrary to scripture, even just in your head, saying, nope, that’s wrong. And I think that’s been a big help to me in different areas. So, yeah, with her too, there was definitely a point where she started Googling. Mostly I think it was because of what people had said. So then she started Googling, okay, hey, am I lesbian and sexually attracted to women? and um she actually sent me a document and this was a document that i guess um she had read at the time and it has a list of 70 things that you may be a lesbian if this is totally a secular document right totally secular there’s a lot of it’s a very long document i think she mentioned

there’s a lot of this is just one but there’s a lot of these things passed there’s a lot of you

know those tests online like you have adhd and like you can do whatever test you want to test yourself for and they always end up being positive.

Conspiracy theorists.

Especially with this and the culture is just making you think that as well. But I just went through the list of 70 and I’m definitely not inclined at all to be attracted with women, but there’s different ones that like, I can say, okay, that was true of me. So like, even as like, as a child, you always thought you’d either, you’d never get married. And, um, that maybe wasn’t as true of me as like, even one of my sisters, she always said she was not going to get married and it was like her thing. Um, and hated any guy that was ever in her life, but she’s happily married. Um, so that’s, it’s good now, but like as a child, there’s, you know, a lot of things you say. Um, this one was interesting to me. It says you only notice the attractiveness of a man, man, when someone else points it out. And that’s exactly how I was. I was very much more emotionally tied to like, when I was talking to a guy, like if he was present emotionally or sweet and just like attentive that would draw me to a guy not his looks at all um and I usually I’d be like some other guy saying oh that guy’s handsome like oh okay I guess there’s a difference between what one guy looks like and another I mean my sister

talked about it we both kind of have felt that way so so how did you first realize that I was

handsome yeah so I did you’re one of the first guys I ever thought was right on but it was actually because another guy said something about me. I was like, yeah, he actually does look better than everybody else.

I love the affirmation.

So it’s just like I was just more emotionally in tune rather than physically. And so they use that as a reason. But clearly, you know, it’s not a reason there. And then there’s like just enjoying talking to women more than men. Well, if you’re not used to talking to men, it’s going to be easier to talk to women because they’re your same gender and stuff. So there’s just little things like that that they pull out and like you could basically figure out your lesbian.

So these are all things on the list that if you check the box yes to these, supposedly you’re lesbian.

And there’s 70 of them. So I only pulled out a few of them, but there’s a lot. And a lot of them I was just noticing just are preying on girls that maybe they haven’t been in a relationship with a guy. And like they’re just insecure and not sure about that. And like, yeah, there’s fear going into any relationship and you don’t have that experience. So a lot of them just tie to that. And also another, a lot of them tie to girls that had failed relationships with guys, you know, probably a guy they shouldn’t have been with, you know. So it’s just all those different things that the devil uses that really aren’t reasons, but they pull it out and make them reasons and make it proof that you’re same-sex attracted to, you know, ladies or whatever. So that was one thing that she mentioned, just kind of further affirmed what she was thinking or trying to diagnose herself with. And she was going in a way, you know, against the Lord anyway, so she wasn’t going to be keeping her thoughts captive. You know, she was just exploring drugs, drinking, everything that, you know, she wasn’t allowed to do before. So these had, it was just like fresh ground for these seeds to grow in. So it just kept kept going further for her. And I think during that time, she also just had a inappropriate relationship with a man. And that didn’t she just felt wrong about that, which it was wrong. So then she was like, Okay, well, maybe that’s why I need to be with ladies. So like, just everything was being skewed by the devil in her life at that point. So

and didn’t wasn’t there something in this document that specifically was saying like, this is going to feel wrong? Yeah, I do have a quote says,

If you love women but feel fake about it, just remember that those feelings are the product of a patriarchal society, which has conditioned you to believe the false idea that you are defined by your ties to men. This can be really difficult to remember at times, and it might take you a while before you can fully love women without feeling like you’re somehow wrong.

Somehow. Somehow wrong. And that’s very revealing that they already know and admit this is going to feel wrong. But again, they don’t care about that. They don’t try to defend it as right. They just say this is going to feel wrong at first. Yeah, yeah. Just do it enough and it’ll stop feeling wrong.

Which goes with the vain imaginations. If you just keep repeating it to yourself.

Yeah, exactly. So interesting thing. When I first was going to this verse in 2 Corinthians 10, 5, casting down imaginations, I thought I remembered it saying vain imaginations. And I was really confused to find that the word vain is not there. although it could say it’s inferred by the Greek word, which is definitely true. However, that word vain, the reason that I was correlating to that is from a different verse, which is very interesting, the correlation, how similar they are, but it’s in Romans 1. So this is like the passage to go to for dealing with homosexuality and God’s perspective on it. But it says in Romans 1.21, because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. So the interesting thing is just several verses later, Romans 1 is a progression. It starts right here, where when they knew God, they glorified him not as God. So this is a problem with our relationship and our view of God. And it says, but became vain in their imaginations. And then their heart was darkened and they go down this spiral that ends with the phrase, God gave them over to their own lust, which included women laying with women and men with men. So all that was the progression that began with what? According to Romans chapter 1, they were vain in their imaginations. They didn’t hold up God and his created order the way they should have. They didn’t respect that. And they thought the answer was in speculating. That’s what the Greek word means. It’s translated imaginations. It’s speculation. And so they assumed that the truth must be in some other form of logic and speculation. And when you’re looking for truth outside of God, which is what vain imaginations are, then you will always end up in a lie and in bondage. So it shouldn’t be surprising. If you have as a principle that you’ll consider anything, then you’re in trouble. Whatever comes across your mind. And you are in trouble because there certainly is wisdom of this world. A lot of it. Yes, that is extremely dangerous and damaging. There’s been several really great, solid Christian men in or studying for ministry that have contacted me recently. And just out of a sensitive heart and wanting to be careful. But they’re questioning some of their own desires as, man, could this be same-sex attraction? Am I one of those people? And it’s very, very clear that they are falling into this category at the very early stages of those that are becoming in bondage to vain imaginations. And I think I was more strong with these guys than I’ve been with anyone ever on a counseling call. Because it was just saying, don’t you ever think that way again. Because I’ve seen now, and not that I’ve talked to thousands of people, but I’ve seen enough from the people I’ve talked to to see this pattern where we begin to consider it and wonder, and then that leads to accepting it. And even if they’re still wanting to be free from it, but they say, yeah, I guess I’m gay. I’ll spend the rest of my life trying not to be. Like, no, don’t accept that. It is not of you. It’s a fiery dart. Those thoughts coming into your heart are fiery darts from the wicked one. And they are not yours. Don’t accept them. Don’t apologize for them. You should literally laugh them off is, I think, how we should treat these. And we’ve said it before on the podcast. But the face of victory is a smile and laughing at the devil saying, are you serious? You thought you could get me with that? Like, how ridiculous is that? There’s no way I’m going to fall to that. And if I have before, there’s no way I’m going to fall to that again. My eyes are open. There’s no way. This is not how God made me. So anyway, anything else from her story that you feel like correlates or could have been other factors in vain imaginations? Based on what she’s told you, where would have been the key moments where if she had just done this, everything would have been different?

Yeah, I guess when it was just put in her head, even by her friends, you know. if she had a relationship with the lord at all that point you know casting that down but there wasn’t much keeping her from that at all yeah at that point um but i mean to the side of victory i guess you could because she’s you know come through it um she was about three years that she was um saying that she was lesbian and everything and then the lord protected that she didn’t get in lesbian relationship, um, where she actually was living. Um, she didn’t have many friends and if she had been elsewhere, she could have, it could have been worse, but she was in a relationship for like a month. But, um, God just really protected her in that. And then after she came out of that lifestyle and actually did get genuinely saved, it was just daily what you’re talking about, just the, agreeing with God and casting down those imaginations, even just deleting texts and photos, like anything God told her to do, she just did. And her girlfriend, I guess you could say, didn’t quite follow that. She got saved, but she didn’t follow that. And she just got bitter and just kind of got right back down in stuff. I’m not sure if she got back into the sexual stuff, but um it’s there’s definitely a very much a difference between how they both handled it um and so now she’s you know I would say in great victory and really would have loved getting married and to a man yeah it sounds like it’s a great testimony Reed I was so thankful when she sent

that in uh and there’s there’s others we look forward to sharing with with y’all at the right time but just this one very clearly pictured this idea of vain imaginations and I think the story have been completely different for her, although it could have been much worse. And thankfully, the Lord stepped in and saved her. It was a gospel issue for her, for sure. But when she got that settled, it is very neat to see the victory in her. And when she reached out to us via email, she was just so excited that this was being dealt with. And she said, I don’t care who knows, I want my testimony to help other people. So maybe there’s others that feel that way and you would be happy